tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post2693575371990177437..comments2024-01-01T00:17:06.193-05:00Comments on Three Rivers Episcopal: The Case For Staying in the Episcopal ChurchJim Simonshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06889838893337097340noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-56443274240547051572009-09-29T13:05:40.561-04:002009-09-29T13:05:40.561-04:00You folks planning the orderly division of the Dio...You folks planning the orderly division of the Diocese of Pittsburgh sound a bit like a bunch of thieves democratically voting on how to share the loot after sticking up the local Minimart.<br /><br />San Joaquin EpiscopalianPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11198571351061863762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-25758679280412460432008-10-12T08:59:00.000-04:002008-10-12T08:59:00.000-04:00The origninal post contained a valid analysis of t...The origninal post contained a valid analysis of the situation prior to the recent realignment vote. The separation has now happened.<BR/><BR/>I wish those staying well and God's grace. I am interesting in how the group staying will be a prophetic witness calling the TEC to faithfulness (I assume to traditional Christian positions, rather than to faithfulness to the "inclusive faith" of the PB).<BR/><BR/>While there is always a place for Christians to boldly proclaim their faith in Christ as savior and Lord, but I do not see how staying in the TEC can restore the Episcopal Church. Maybe my faith is too small.<BR/><BR/>Being a prophet witness has gotten many into trouble within TEC. The language is a compelling aspect, but can it implemented? Not all those Pittsburgh parishes staying are interested in being a prophetic witness. Some appear to be perfect harmony with 815 positions.<BR/><BR/>I hope that the concept that schism is more serious than heresy is not a consideration in staying. If one takes that position seriously, then off to Rome. I doubt I will see the current PB attempt to heal the schism of the 16th century.<BR/><BR/>To those staying with TEC, go with God. To those continuing in the [realigned] Diocese of Pittsburgh, go with God. May both be faithful witnesses to Christ, and maybe calling TEC back to Christ.<BR/><BR/>Peace,Paulinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04175635839885700181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-92161204790056354152008-09-24T08:43:00.000-04:002008-09-24T08:43:00.000-04:00As a member of the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaqui...As a member of the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin I listen with intent to all your carrying on and I am amazed and how so many of you "know heresy when you see it". Pittsburgh is truly blessed. There may even be a Supreme Court judge amongst you. While I am choking back tears for your diocese due to the hurt and pain caused I also wish to make one comment to Mary Ailes. My family dates back to 1640 as Quakers. My family was one of the later founders of Whittier, CA and I would appreciate it if you would not drag the Quakers in to our differences. My experience is nothing like yours and I would say<BR/>you have no idea what Quakers would be doing. Why you folks think you "know" everything simply amazes me.Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-7714981919719964142008-08-18T22:42:00.000-04:002008-08-18T22:42:00.000-04:00Hey Baby Blue: we are on the same side and by the ...Hey Baby Blue: we are on the same side and by the way - my ancestors came over on the Mayflower- not a lot of love for Anglicanism there !Jim Simonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06889838893337097340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-64650371097866461852008-08-16T18:15:00.000-04:002008-08-16T18:15:00.000-04:00You've been very blessed to be in the Diocese of P...You've been very blessed to be in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, Jim. I wish we all could have shared in that blessing! And I can say that because my family goes back thirteen generations in the Pittsburgh area! I'm sure my Quaker forebears would be quaking to see what's happening - they probably wouldn't be surprised though. They did not have great affection for the Church of England, alas. ;-)<BR/><BR/>I do appreciate that you are willing to stay in there and fight for the Lord. Just remember, many of us - on the outside as well as the inside - are all on the same side, okay? <BR/><BR/>You will help plant the seeds of our reunion. God bless you.<BR/><BR/>-Mary Ailes<BR/>BabyBlueOnline.orgAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-1426743639126328922008-07-02T20:27:00.000-04:002008-07-02T20:27:00.000-04:00To continue where I left off, there is a culture o...To continue where I left off, there is a culture of oppression in pecusa. While the orthodox are shielded from this in largely orthodox places like Albany, Fort Worth, Pittsburgh, SC, and other dioceses doesn't make the oppression any less in other less hospitable places.<BR/><BR/>As an example, consider the priest who disagreed with his bishop at a diocesan convention. He received a telephone call from his bishop that night saying that if he ever did that again he would never serve in the Episcopal Church again. Granted, no bishop has that power, but the threat was made. <BR/><BR/>For a priest who has served most if not all his career in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, maybe there is some isolation from what is happening in other dioceses. The case in SC is not an isolated one. Standing Committees tried to block both Bp. Iker and Bp. Ackerman from receiving the necessary consents. The fact that SC came later than Iker and Ackerman may suggest that things are getting worse.<BR/><BR/>The fact that Jim Simons isn't clear on whether a diocese can leave pecusa does not necessarily make this an open question. We've seen San Joaquin leave and we know that others are considering doing so. Is it messy? Of course it is.<BR/>So what? <BR/><BR/>Frankly, the issues raised concerning bylaws and canons sound like someone trying to come up with reasons not to do something rather than a formidable cogent argument.<BR/><BR/>Property issues are a concern since we have seen the vicious nature of pecusa's attachment to material goods. As one who has left pecusa and buildings, I can say this is a difficult hurdle, but Jesus didn't seem to put much effort in owning or maintaining property. At the end of the essay is a word about sacrifice, but a word about sacrifice concerning property issues might be apropos.<BR/><BR/>The women clergy and closing of parishes issues sound like scare tactics.<BR/><BR/>The issue really is faithfulness. Is maintaining communion bonds with apostates and heretics the faithful act? Or is aligning with an Anglican Communion entity that has severed ties with pecusa the faithful act?<BR/><BR/>As far as personal pain, as a CANA priest I have had to forgo the pecusa pension plan. I hope that these kinds of personal pains do not factor into someone's decision to stay in pecusa, but how can anyone know? <BR/><BR/>What was painful for me as a pecusa priest was losing families because of the acts of General Conventions. What was frustrating for me was having to explain that I was an Episcopalian, but not like those that our folks and others read about in the newspaper.<BR/><BR/>I don't see anything in the New Testament that suggests that being faithful means sharing communion with heretics. How is it that we are one body with those who proclaim an alien gospel and who worship an alien god (e.g. God as Mother).<BR/><BR/>I do see plenty in the NT about church discipline. Bearing witness to the truth sometimes means separating from error. I am sorry that those who I count as brothers (and sisters) in Christ see it as a faithful act to remain in a church that is walking further and further apart from the Anglican Communion.Tony Seelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751662054424993371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-30452772269559955582008-07-02T12:42:00.000-04:002008-07-02T12:42:00.000-04:00Although this is a thoughtful analysis of the prac...Although this is a thoughtful analysis of the practical issues involved with re-alignment, I must take issue with the thesis that the theological errors of TEC are merely anectodal. Jim appeals to the fact that the Book of Common Prayer has not changed, but I would submit that it has. One of the roles stated for a bishop is that the person be a "wholesome example for the entire flock of Christ." When consents were granted by General Convention action, followed the actual consecration of a man in an openly partnered same-sex relationship, our definition of "wholesome example" officially changed. As I recall, there was great clarity on this point at the time, and it was precisely this de facto change in doctrine that created the crisis!Blue Heronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13692513688011904678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-91146320985197645252008-07-02T11:35:00.000-04:002008-07-02T11:35:00.000-04:00Jim, while I respect you and your position, I do f...Jim, while I respect you and your position, I do find significant holes in your argument. Passing off the apostasy of pecusa as based on "anecdotal evidence" suggests far less than the mound of evidence that exists on pecusa's apostasy. From the public statements of bishops including the presiding bishop to the "prophetic acts" of parishes in many dioceses, the apostasy of pecusa is clear.<BR/><BR/>As others have said and I agree, to tie one's view of the orthodoxy of a thirty-year-old prayer book is weak. Much of what is happening in pecusa is in violation of that same prayerbook as well as ancient belief and practice.<BR/><BR/>I've got to go, but I'll continue later.Tony Seelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751662054424993371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-8588307039038231712008-07-02T09:56:00.000-04:002008-07-02T09:56:00.000-04:00A diocese, which is a creature both of church law ...A diocese, which is a creature both of church law and of State law, most certainly can amend its Constitution and Canons so as to leave the Church under State law. If Church law tried to prevent this, it would be a violation of the right to freedom of association under the First Amendment. (That is why your analogy to States leaving the Union is inapposite---the First Amendment does not apply in that situation.) But under church law, the members of the diocese choosing to remain still constitute the diocese as before, and when those people organize into a new legal entity (such as an unincorporated association) recognized by the State, they will then be in the same legal and canonical status as they were before the majority left, albeit with a reduced membership. (See the discussion of how all this happens <A HREF="http://accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2008/05/can-diocese-ever-leave-church.html" REL="nofollow">here.</A>)<BR/><BR/>If you indeed succeed in working out a plan that will keep 815 from rushing in as it did in San Joaquin, then a lot of the chaos that happened there can be avoided. There is absolutely no reason for a lawsuit unless 815 directs it, and there is absolutely no reason why the parting of the ways cannot be accomplished by Christians with love and respect on both sides.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-29988441542260887642008-07-02T08:34:00.000-04:002008-07-02T08:34:00.000-04:00Father, I take your point about staying within TEC...Father, I take your point about staying within TEC as a prophetic witness calling TEC back to its first Love. It is, I believe, an admirable stand in its motivation. <BR/><BR/>However, I cannot take that position any longer myself. It is one thing if I as an individual chose to stand up to apostacy within TEC and face the wrath of the 815 and her minions. I may well personally choose to go down fighting for the faith once delivered to the saints inside the bounds of TEC. <BR/><BR/>However, as a priest I have come to doubt that I should continue to encourage those the Lord has entrusted to my pastoral care to take those same risks to their spiritual welfare? Am I not leading my flock into harm's way simply so I can continue my personal "prophetic call"? And even more problematicly, should I convince them to baptize their children into what is clearly a diseased limb of Christ's Body? That infant who is being introduced into the fellowship of TEC has no say in the matter of becoming a prophetic witness to TEC at all. And nothing I have seen in the last thirty years tells me that by the time he or she is old enough to meaningfully take up that call for himself or herself that there will be much left within TEC to witness to anyway. How can I any longer in good conscience baptize young people into the fellowship of TEC simply in the hope that one day they will continue the prophetic call to the deaf ears of TEC that the dioFW has been crying out for the last 25 years?<BR/><BR/>Finally, one practical point. Your catalog of the difficulties of realignment seems fairly accurate,and it is a certainty that TEC's lawsuits will fly against us immediately. But it is also pretty clear that most of FW and Pittsburgh and Quincy will be following San Joaquin out of TEC in just a few months. Those of you who are staying behind in TEC will have even fewer voices inside TEC carrying on your vocation. But why cannot the voices of those in a new orthodox province also be effective witnesses to TEC of the truth? Perhaps a separate province may even be a MORE effective witness than a tiny, declining remnant within TEC? At least those who are leaving TEC will have shown that they are willing to take massive practical risks (as your objections clearly indicate--though I submit that the well-being of our souls may be inhanced by coming out and living apart from TEC) in order to bear that witness to the Truth.Texanglican (R.W. Foster+)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07490925636491370254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3781727046490408959.post-289831838021486792008-06-28T17:03:00.000-04:002008-06-28T17:03:00.000-04:00I think that this is a fair analysis. I am not so ...I think that this is a fair analysis. I am not so sure, however, about the covenant process or that if a covenant receives "universal" consent, individual dioceses within a non-covenanting church will remain or be permitted to be a full part of the Anglican Communion. That remains to be seen.<BR/><BR/>However the call to faithfulness and prophetic witness in TEC is compelling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com