Showing posts with label new province. Show all posts
Showing posts with label new province. Show all posts

Friday, January 9, 2009

California Ruling in Episcopal Church Dispute Deals Setback to Breakaway Parishes Nationwide

From US News and World Report-

A California Supreme Court decision this week that blocked three breakaway Episcopal Church parishes from holding onto their church buildings and property marks the latest in a string of legal victories for the national church and casts doubt on the efforts of other parishes to keep church grounds as they secede from the Episcopal Church over what they see as its liberal drift on matters like the ordination of gay clergy.

The Episcopal Church, with 2.1 million members, hopes the California ruling also sets a precedent for the property rights of the national denomination as several whole dioceses that have left the church attempt to keep their buildings and property. The ruling's implications for legal fights at the diocesan level are less clear.

"If the court had ruled against the national church, it could have given legal support for the development of the so-called new province," Trinity College religion scholar Frank Kirkpatrick says, referring to a coalition of four U.S. Episcopal dioceses and dozens more parishes that recently announced plans to start a rival denomination.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/religion/2009/01/08/california-ruling-in-episcopal-church-dispute-deals-setback-to-breakaway-parishes-nationwide.html

Monday, January 5, 2009

St. John's members bolt Episcopal flock


If you're going to leave this is the way to do it. From the Diocese of Upper South Carolina-

Members of North Augusta's St. John's Episcopal Church severed ties with the national congregation Sunday, rejecting a shift toward a more progressive theology that has led to the blessing of same-sex marriages and gay leaders in the church.

They are now calling themselves the Church of the Holy Trinity and are aligned with the Anglican Church in North America, an alliance created in December that presents itself as a conservative alternative to the Episcopal Church.

To avoid a legal dispute with the Diocese of Upper South Carolina, the Holy Trinity congregants abandoned the St. John's sanctuary on Belvedere-Clearwater Road and will hold their first service next Sunday in a converted warehouse near Interstate 20.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/2009/01/05/met_506567.shtml

Saturday, December 27, 2008

The Episcopal Church still united

Reflection on the state of the church from the warden at St. Mark's Chapel in Beaufort South Carolina. He puts things in perspective.

Since I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church as a pre-teen, I have followed the problems and progress of my denomination and seen firsthand when a group disagrees with and leaves the organized national church. Despite the occasional disagreements, I always have been proud to be a member of this fellowship that follows scripture, tradition and reason as doctrinal foundation.

The Gazette reported about the current disagreement on the front page of its Faith section Dec. 13: "The Episcopal Church divided? Despite divisions nationally, local split unlikely." The article could leave the impression that there are many more malcontents than actually exist, and does not mention that although four bishops have left the national Episcopal Church, the vast majority of about 100 bishops remain. Even in South Carolina, there are two dioceses, not just one as the article implies: the Diocese of South Carolina, essentially south of Columbia, under Bishop Mark Lawrence, and the Diocese of Upper South Carolina, Columbia and north.

To my knowledge, there is no move afoot within the upper diocese to hold discussions with the break-away group attempting to form a new Anglican province. Your article suggests, however, that our bishop has participated in such discussions even though Lawrence said he has no plans to leave. The quote from the rector of St. Helena's Episcopal Church that "there have been no plans to leave" also was encouraging. However, he does point out that there are "a lot of issues" on which there is disagreement with the national Episcopal Church.

http://www.beaufortgazette.com/181/story/658211.html

Friday, December 26, 2008

Division Weakens the Body of Christ


The Dean of the National Cathedral reflects on the damage being done with the recent schism in the Episcopal Church.

"Should conservative Episcopalians who disagree with U.S. church leaders about homosexuality, women's ordination, biblical literalism and other issues leave and form a separate denomination?"

It's a sad thing to behold--that within a community of Christians called by their Lord to love each other, a group would consider leaving to form a separate denomination, or, as is currently happening, would seek to create a separate province of the theologically like-minded within the Anglican Communion. We in the Episcopal Church have been disagreeing deeply for some time--about human sexuality and about how we read scripture. And an array of cultural and global forces have been at work driving a wedge between the sides.

But unity is at the core of what it means to be Christian. We are members all of one Body, St. Paul wrote. We are part of an interdependent community that needs all its parts. "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you, nor the head to the feet, I have no need of you,'' Paul argued. All the parts need each other, even when they may at the moment be alienated. Liberals need conservatives to keep them rooted in the ancient teaching; conservatives need liberals to keep them looking for the new things God is doing in the world. God's truth is bigger than any one part can claim.

That is why the endless divisions within the Christian church through the centuries have been so tragic. The church has held to a set of core beliefs articulated most clearly in its creeds. When serious conflicts have arisen, many have persisted in the church out of the conviction that it is better to stay together and bear witness to the truth than to leave for the sake of theological purity. Schism, they believed, is worse than heresy because it undermines the essential Christian call to love one another. As Jesus said, the night before he was killed, "By this everyone will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Christ himself saw our capacity to love across our differences as the surest sign of God's purpose for our world and something essential we have to give.

There have been actions and words on both sides that have been arrogant and dismissive. And as in any long-term marriage, both sides can point to hurtful things said and done. But the decision to form a new province, or perhaps even to leave the denomination, diminishes all Episcopalians and Anglicans and tragically weakens the one gift the world most needs from the church - a vision of a love that is deeper than all the issues that divide the human race.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/samuel_t_lloyd/2008/12/division_weakens_the_body_of_c.html

Sunday, December 21, 2008

Answering God's call: Bishop Urban


Here's a splinter group I've never heard of, although I have met Ruth at some point. I guess they won't be a part of the "new province" where women bishops are forbidden.

Urban will be consecrated as a bishop at Holy Apostles Anglican Church (which meets inside Northeast Christian Church) in Madison today at 1:30 p.m. The event, which is open to the public, marks the first time a woman has been ordained as a bishop in the conservative breakaway churches of the Anglican religion.

Urban, along with her husband, John, are now priests at Holy Apostles, a congregation they established in 2004 that is now under the umbrella of All Nation's Anglican Church in Amarillo, Texas. The couple plans to move to Texas next year so that Urban may fulfill her duties as bishop. The Rev. Larry L. Bain, a priest who currently serves with the Urbans, will lead Holy Apostles, and others may be appointed to join him.

When Ruth Urban assumes her new position, she will have a nongeographic missionary diocese and responsibilities that include creating new churches and ministering across multiracial and multiethnic lines. She will also mentor clergy and continue a healing ministry.

Ruth Urban explained that the Anglican Communion International has 38 provinces that are under the See (seat of authority) of Canterbury. The Episcopal Church is one, and there are breakaway churches that are not under the see, like the Urbans' Holy Apostles church that is affiliated with the Texas-based All Nation's Anglican Church.

http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20081220/FEAT04/812200328/1023

Friday, December 19, 2008

Staying out of fight - Churches avoid Episcopal schism


From North Carolina. Apparently the "new province" is a non-event there.

The sky is not falling on the Episcopal Church.

The church gained national attention this month when a breakaway group formed a North American province to rival U.S. Episcopalians and Canadian Anglicans. Despite the split, local Episcopalian pastors are not worried it will have an adverse affect on their congregations.
Less than 5 percent of the Episcopal Church made the split and formed the new Anglican Church in North America, said the Rev. Bill Smyth, rector of Calvary Episcopal Church in Tarboro. None of the six Episcopalian churches in the Twin Counties were among the dissenters.

“Other than reading about it in the newspaper, I have had very few conversations initiated by parishioners on this subject. ... The Episcopal Church is going right on, and I have to say that I do not think this particular movement, like other dissenting movements in the history of the Episcopal Church, is really going to go anywhere,” said Smyth, who is also the vicar of St. Luke’s Episcopal Church in Tarboro.

The Rev. George Greer, rector of St. Andrew’s Episcopal Church in Rocky Mount, has seen almost no impact on his congregation.

“Like a lot of people, as far as their church is concerned, it is their church. You don’t necessarily think about your national body. I doubt when the Southern Baptist Church went ultraconservative that every Baptist felt as though they were affiliated with everything the national branch was saying,” Greer said.

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/features/staying-out-of-fight-308191.html

Thursday, December 18, 2008

Episcopal Church Needs Evangelicals

Richard Mouw , President of Fuller Seminary encourages conservatives to stay as a witness.

This is a complicated issue for many of us who worry about the theological direction of the Episcopal Church in the USA (ECUSA). For one thing, I hate to see conservatives leave over women's ordination. What that means, among other things, is that they are abandoning many dedicated women clergy who are themselves conservative on the other two issues: biblical authority and homosexuality.

But we do have to be clear that it is not enough to say that the departing conservatives are simply setting up "a separate denomination." In this case they are aligning themselves with the growing majority of Anglican churches around the world--an alignment that liberal Episcopalians are choosing to abandon by their recent actions.
For me, though, there is a further complication.

The evangelical seminary that I lead was founded six decades ago to counter the "separatism" of much of the evangelicalism of the day. One of the founding purposes, then, was to prepare persons for evangelical ministries in mainline denominations. While I respect and support those who sense God's call to depart from a denomination like ECUSA, I also want to respect the call of those evangelicals who choose to hang in there. I don't want to see ECUSA left without an evangelical presence.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/richard_mouw/2008/12/wrong_to_leave_episcopal_churc.html

Episcopal Head Addresses Controversies, Challenges Media


The PB at the The National Press Club this week-

"On two occasions in the last few days, leaders in my own church have said to me that the church only makes the front page if it’s about schism or sex – and in the current era, preferably both," said Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, who leads The Episcopal Church – the U.S. arm of Anglicanism.

The Episcopal Church has made headlines over the last several years ever since it consecrated its first openly gay bishop in 2003. The move, which conservatives see as part of the national church's departure from Anglican tradition and Scripture, created deeper rifts within the global Anglican Communion and forced a number of congregations to break from the U.S. body.

Now The Episcopal Church is prominently back in the spotlight over a rival Anglican church that conservatives are forming in North America. Conservative groups, representing 100,000 Anglicans who severed ties with The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada, have expressed a desire to live out their faith separate from the current existing North American bodies but aligned with the rest of the Anglican Communion.

Its all here-

http://christianpost.com/article/20081217/episcopal-head-addresses-controversies-challenges-media.htm

Tuesday, December 16, 2008

Pity the poor Anglicans? They'll decline. (The offer)

From the Vancouver Canada paper-

The threat of schism in the worldwide Anglican communion, focussing on dust-ups in the U.S. and Canada, has been much in the news for almost a decade. The media and some Anglicans have created a sense of overwhelming crisis in the 70 million-member denomination.

It's enough to make you pity the poor Anglicans.

But I think most would decline the offer.

Many don't seem to want pity, which can have a condescending quality. They recognize some shifts are happening in global Anglicanism, not to mention global Christianity. But most Anglicans just want to get on with the "business" of being a vibrant, caring church. Many congregations around the world, including in Canada and the U.S., are doing just that.

There was media fanfare in early December when the Common Cause Partnership, a group of 700 conservative Anglican congregations in the U.S. and Canada, announced they're want to create their own "province" of the Anglican church. It was no small event, but such "news" now has a certain tiredness for most Anglicans.

It's also not the whole story in the Anglican church, including in Metro Vancouver, which has been one of the Anglican denomination's hot spots, with its years-old debate over same-sex blessings.

Even the Religion Newswriters Association, which represents almost 300 religion writers at secular news outlets in North America, added a "reality check" to the Anglican "crisis" this week.

Worth Reading the rest here-

http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2008/12/16/pity-the-poor-anglicans.aspx

New Mexico diocese votes to stay Episcopal

The Diocese of the Rio Grande votes to leave the Network and stay in the Episcopal Church. (Now those are hats!)

Episcopalians in New Mexico have voted to leave a conservative umbrella group and "reaffirm" their commitment to the Episcopal Church rather than join a new rival Anglican province on U.S. soil.

The Albuquerque-based Diocese of the Rio Grande on Thursday (Dec. 11) said it could not support plans to launch a new Anglican Church in North America and voted to end its four-year membership in the Pittsburgh-based Anglican Communion Network.

The Anglican Communion Network is one of 11 conservative groups that joined together to launch the new province on Dec. 3. Four Episcopal dioceses that belonged to the Pittsburgh group and have already left the national church plan to join the new province.

But other Episcopal dioceses that supported the Pittsburgh group, like Rio Grande, do not plan to join the new province and are likely to remain in the Episcopal Church, officials said.

"The Standing Committee of the Episcopal Diocese of the Rio Grande disaffiliates from the Anglican Communion Network and rescinds its motion of support … and reaffirms the Diocese of the Rio Grande’s commitment to the Episcopal Church," the diocese’s elected leadership said in a unanimous resolution.

http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2849

Thursday, December 11, 2008

An Hysterically Relevant Cartoon


If you can't read it here's the link-

http://www.arcamax.com/agnes/s-453235-526030

In the name of God, sod off


The Guardian on the Letter that Bishop Chane sent to Rowan. The article also has a link to the New York Times article about the "new province".

Here is the Bishop of Washington explaining the Anglican schism to his flock. To understand what follows, you have to know something that none of the British press actually reported last week, which was the latest stage in the Anglican schism. A number of splinter groups, with perhaps 350 congregations between them, in the USA and Canada announced they were leaving the Episcopal church there and forming their own, which they hope will be recognised eventually by the rest of the Anglican Communion, whatever that may be. In the first place, they want recognition from the Gafcon grouping, some of whose members have already consecrated some of the new splinter groups' bishops.

Anyway, it all made a front page story in the New York Times.

The bishop of Washington, Dr John Chane, is one of the more important leaders of the majority church and he was worried that his flock might be confused by the newspaper. So he explained the story from his angle:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2008/dec/11/religion-anglicanism-schism

Archbishop of Canterbury accused of creating confusion in the church

From the London Telegraph. Bishop Chane speaks his mind.

The Rt Rev John Chane, the Bishop of Washington, has criticised Dr Rowan Williams's handling of the crisis over gay clergy in the Church.

In a letter to his clergy, he claims that the archbishop has encouraged conservatives who are determined to destroy the Anglican Church by listening to their demands for a breakaway province.

Dr Williams last week met with the primates of Nigeria, Uganda, Kenya and Rwanda, who boycotted this summer's Lambeth Conference and instead held their own conference, called Gafcon, which proposed the creation of a rival global network of traditionalists.

They have supported moves to set up a new Church in America opposed to gay clergy and led by the deposed bishop of Pittsburgh, Bob Duncan.

"It would be folly for the Archbishop to even consider recognising a non-geographical province because it would unleash chaos in the Communion, with theological minorities in every jurisdiction seeking to affiliate with likeminded Anglicans in other provinces," said Bishop Chane.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3703412/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-accused-of-creating-confusion-in-the-church.html

Wednesday, December 10, 2008

Anglican Communion Network to Morph into New Province


The Network announces that is going to become the infrastructure of the "new province". Those offices are already just down the hall from those of the Southern Cone Group in Pittsburgh.

Delegates to the Anglican Communion Network’s fifth annual council meeting in Overland Park, Kansas, voted today to begin handing over ministries as well as financial and administrative support services to the forming Anglican Church in North America.

Network members spoke of how much the organization has meant to them since its founding in 2004. “This has been my lifeline. Without the Anglican Communion Network and you all, I don’t know what would have happened,” said Episcopal Church Bishop Jim Adams of Western Kansas.

During the approximately six months the hand over is expected to take, the Network office will continue to provide key organizational, administrative and other services for Network members and the Common Cause Partnership as it completes the creation of the Anglican Church in North America.
The hand over will not be complete until the summer of 2009. When it is complete, the Network as it is currently configured will cease operation.

http://www.acn-us.org/archive/2008/12/celebrates-prepares.html

Tuesday, December 9, 2008

Five of Six GAFCON Primates Endorse "New Province" in North America


The only surprise here is that the GAFCON Primates Council is comprised of six not five Primates and The Most Rev Valentino Mokiwa, Primate of Tanzania, the sixth Primate, is missing from the endorsement.

Five Anglican archbishops have backed the introduction of a new Anglican province in North America, a significant, though unsurprising boost for the conservative-led initiative.

"We fully support this development with our prayer and blessing,"
said the archbishops, who are called primates because they lead regional branches of the worldwide Anglican Communion. "It demonstrates the determination of these faithful Christians to remain authentic Anglicans."

Last Wednesday (Dec. 3), a group of conservative dissidents announced that they were starting a branch of the Anglican Communion called the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). The group claims 100,000 members, including most of four dioceses that have split with the Episcopal Church, the U.S. branch of the communion, in the last year.

The new province faces several obstacles before it is officially admitted to the Anglican Communion, however, including the approval of two-thirds of the communion's 38 primates.

Released on Dec. 6, the primates' statement was signed by:
Archbishop Henry Orombi of Uganda, Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi of Kenya, Archbishop Emmanuel Kolini of Rwanda, Archbishop Gregory Venables of the Southern Cone (South America), and Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria.

Story here-

http://www.gafcon.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=89&Itemid=12

Official Statement here-

http://www.gafcon.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=96&Itemid=12

Monday, December 8, 2008

Split in Episcopal Church a 'sad' reality, say Norwalk pastors

Another report from Connecticut, this time from Norwalk. Rectors are saying the "new province" will have no effect on their congregations.

Both Lang and Keen say the announcement this week will not change the day-to-day routines of their churches and will not affect the way their parishioners view their faith.

"What happened in Illinois won't affect my congregation at all," Keen said. "For the most part, parishioners in the Episcopal Church will go on worshipping. The issue of gay and lesbian ordination and promotion to bishop doesn't really affect their lives in the church. They will go on worshipping as they did before Wednesday."

(snip)

The proposed split would further divide the already troubled community but would bring together nine groups who have cut their ties with the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada over the years. Membership of this new community is estimated at 100,000 individuals. The Episcopal Church's worldwide membership numbers more than two million.

"There isn't going to be some sort of mass exodus from the Episcopal Church in order to join this new group," Lang said. "Those who are here are here because the Episcopal Church is an accepting community and because they don't agree with excluding people based on gender or sexual preference. This conservative group would rather everyone stay in the closet."

http://www.thehour.com/story/461046

Area Episcopal leaders: no plans to join split


An article from Daytona Beach (the conservative diocese of Central Florida). It would appear that the "new province is a non-starter there too.

Anglicans know quite a bit about Puritans and separatists. After all, those movements in the Church of England helped create the colonies that became the United States.

On Dec. 3, religiously conservative bishops from four Episcopal dioceses in North America announced they were forming a new province in the Anglican Church. Rowan Williams -- the Archbishop of Canterbury, head of the church -- has dismissed the claim of forming a new province as premature, according to the church's news service.

Local Episcopalian ministers sympathize but don't offer much support for the newly-forming Anglican Church in North America -- which includes dioceses in Fort Worth; Texas; Pittsburgh; Quincy, Ill.; and Fresno, Calif.

Don Lyon, dean of the Northeast Deanery of the Episcopal Diocese of Central Florida, said he was distressed but not surprised by the recent announcement. The Deanery covers all of Volusia County. Lyon is also the rector of St. Barnabas Episcopal Church in DeLand.

"Schism is always a great sadness in the church," said Lyon. "I mean, the scriptures call us to have one shepherd and one church, and Jesus' prayer was for unity. From God's point of view the (Body of Christ) cannot be broken or separated."

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/EastVolusia/evlHEAD02120808.htm

Episcopal Schism: Both Sides' Leaders Unsure Of Next Step


Reaction from Connecticut (Hartford) regarding the "new province". Chris Leighton was priest in the Diocese of Pittsburgh for many years. Sounds like some of the conservatives there aren't buying it.

But the Rev. Christopher Leighton, whose church — St. Paul's in Darien — is one of the original "Connecticut Six" churches, still isn't sure what will come next for his congregation. St. Paul's has yet to leave the Episcopal Church and, as such, is one of the more prominent "fence-sitters" in Connecticut.

Leighton, who attended last week's meeting in Chicago, was elated to have been part of the decision to form a new province and called it a time of "healing, restoration and vindication" for conservatives who have felt alienated by the Episcopal Church.

But that doesn't mean he was willing, or able, to predict whether St. Paul's will leave the Episcopal Church.

"I'm sure there are some people who are thinking, 'When are you going to get moving?'" Leighton said. "The answer is, when the Lord leads us. I have confidence in that and I think the people at St. Paul's Darien have confidence that the Lord is leading us."

The Rev. Tom White, who leads St. Peter's Episcopal Church in South Windsor, said he doesn't believe the creation of a new province will have any immediate impact on his congregation.

"I think it's just too early to know how that will go and how the Episcopal Church will respond," White said.

White and his congregation disagreed strongly with Smith's decision to support the ordination of an openly gay bishop in 2003 and requested they report to another, more conservative bishop. But White said he can't see his church making any further changes now.

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/hc-episcopal1208.artdec08,0,6235375.story

Sunday, December 7, 2008

Viewing Episcopal split through historical lens


From Fort Wayne- My good froend Bishop Ed Little is quoted.

With another schism in the headlines this week - a possible split in the Episcopal Church due in large part to the appointment of an openly gay bishop in 2003 - it's good to remember that such conflicts are neither new, nor unique to Christianity.

That's because, while God may be perfect, we human beings most definitely are not.

All of which is of little comfort to the Rev. Edward Little, Episcopal bishop for the Diocese of Northern Indiana. Even though he opposed the consecration of New Hampshire Bishop V. Gene Robinson because it required “changing Christ's doctrine in a serious way,” he said this week he is saddened by the proposed split and wants no part of it. Neither, he said, do his diocese's 36 congregations, including three in Fort Wayne.

“In John 17 Christ prays that we ‘may be one.' Schisms never solve anything, they make us less effective,” Little added. “Many of the people with whom I disagree love the Lord. This isn't the same as disagreeing about the resurrection or the nature of the Trinity. We need to work out these issues, even though it may take decades or even centuries.”

In other words, disagreement over fundamentals of the faith is one thing. A schism over the church's response to homosexuality does not.

He's right, although - no pun intended - the devil is, as always, in the details.

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081206/NEWS/812060326/0/FRONTPAGE

Saturday, December 6, 2008

The new Anglican branch will face several significant hurdles.


Christianity Today gives a realistic assessment of the obstacles confronting the "new province". Already Jack Iker (who may or may not be a Bishop (See below)) has declared himself to be in impaired communion with the women clergy in Pittsburgh. Ian Douglas is right, this sort of division is just part of their DNA.

Under Anglican rules, formal recognition of a province usually requires the assent of two-thirds of the communion's 38 primates — or leading archbishops. But Wednesday's unprecedented announcement raises new questions.

Bishop Martyn Minns, a leader in the Common Cause Partnership, estimates that nearly a dozen primates will support its new venture, about half the number it needs for recognition. Gaining the approval of more primates may prove difficult, said the Rev. Ian Douglas, of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

"What happens in one province could set a precedent and come back to their own (province)," said Douglas.

Similar concerns could be raised by the Anglican Consultative Council (ACC), a 70-member international body that must also approve the new province, said Douglas, who sits on the council.

In an essay published online, the Rev. Ephraim Radner, a leading North American conservative, argued that these obstacles are nearly insurmountable.

The new province "will probably not be recognized at the primates' meeting as a whole or even by a majority of its members," he said. "Nor will it be recognized at the ACC. Thus it threatens to be yet another wedge in the breakup of the communion."

(snip)
According to the constitution released late Wednesday, each diocese, cluster or network in the newly declared province will have significant autonomy on women's ordination and other matters. But already, Bishop Jack Iker of Fort Worth, Texas, whose diocese seceded from the Episcopal Church this year, has declared himself in "impaired communion" with female priests ordained in Pittsburgh.

"The new grouping is, in the eyes of many," said Radner, "representative of diverse bodies whose theology and ecclesiology is, taken together, incoherent, and perhaps in some cases even incompatible."

That bodes ill for the denomination's future, Douglas said. "Those who have been quick to separate themselves out in the past have that as part of their operational DNA," he said.


http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/decemberweb-only/149-53.0.html